[email protected]

Robert,

As I look at the “teletype” messages that are included, attachments 3-7 many things bother me, the least of not is the classification format is incorrect and in violation of security regulations.

The operators at MACV HQ comm. Center were actually pretty good at what they did and I don’t think this message would have passed muster. Also, it would not have passed through crypto and teletype equipment that would have automatically rejected it in this format.

The “type set” looks authentic (teletype machine printer).

I would arrange these in this order, which is the order in which they supposedly occurred:

Your 6 = 1 1238 Zulu 12 Dec 74

3 = 2 1330 Zulu 12 Dec 74

4 = 3 0314 Zulu 22 Mar 74

5 = 4 1727 Zulu 19 Nov 74

One of these documents is in, somewhat, teletype format, but states it will later be sent via secure communications. What is that all about? It would not be in this format if it wasn’t handled by a communications center, even if it is incorrect in many aspects, with the intention that it be transmitted. It appears that someone is saying these were sent, or received messages. If that is so, why would the originator include a statement that they would later be sent via secure communications?????

I think there are just too many things about these documents that anyone with knowledge of military secure communications and message formats requirements would find questionable, to even come close to validating it.

Don Williams

Communications Superintendent

SMSgt, USAF, Ret.

MACVSOG

From: [email protected]

> Managed to delete the original msg from Noe and all attachments forwarded
> by you by fumbling...but I recall that the docs referred to the individual
> as having Aircrew wings and being awarded two purple hearts.
>
> One doc also went on to say that the unit did not have authority to grant
> the award of the CMB and could not award the CIB as the individual was a
> “noncombatant”.
>
> These are all errors typical of a bullshitter trying to sound military.
>
> -Normally, when referring to multiple awards of the same medal we state
> something like "Individual has following awards: PH(1OLC)" ( first Oak Leaf
> Cluster, denoting a second award of the base decoration). We don't say the
> guy got two , three or nineteen PH's in official correspondence.
>
> -For the Republic of Vietnam Conflict the dates for award of the Combat
> Medic Badge were 2 March 1961 to 28 March 1973 . The CMB is intended for,
> and awarded to, those medical personnel who accompany the infantryman into
> combat. The Army has never approved of deviations from this purpose and its
> restrictive criteria. The CIB requires that the individual be serving in an
> infantry MOS, in the rank of COL or below in a infantry unit and for Vietnam
> had the same dates. No HQ was dumb enough to make the statements that were
> included in the docs- concerning why the individual did not receive the CMB
> or CIB.
>
> -And there is little likelihood the individual could have been awarded
> Aircrew Wings. At most he might have been awarded (again-during the period
> up to Mar 73) an air medal for participation in flights.
>
> Mostly this appears to be a set up to justify a fake military record without
> having any back-up documentation by spurious and misleading references to
> classified awards and ridiculous assertions meant to imply that the
> individual should have been awarded certain badges.
>
> Throw the guy in the can and toss the key away.

[email protected]

1. Pg1 Orders would not reflect between a person and an office, only between 2 offices. It is wrong that 2LT's name is listed in the first paragraph. 2. Pg 3 Since when are awards classified. 3. Hospital could and would award CMB if authorized, other wise MOS not listed for CIB during Combat in Southeast Asia. 4. Rest of pages are not orders they are messages. 5. I was not in Vietnam at this time, the question I would have is was SF so short of Medics that they would take an NON-SF Qualified on a misson? L. Payne GL 1312

---

From: [email protected]

There’s also a lot of crap in all the documents. Looks like somebody cut and pasted boiler plate and then tried to throw in “military sounding” terms in add-on narratives to make the add-ons sound authentic.

-bottom line: even though the personnel system warn’t the best they didn’t cut orders to units that no longer existed.

And TDY’s were not TDY’s if they were 365 days. Most of the time they were done in six month increments to avoid PCS.

You don’t get “casual pay” ( as I recall that simply refers to being able to draw a portion of your regular pay at a time other than the first of the month.)----you are either authorized per diem or not, plus other things as well. Whole bunch of things just make a real S1 laugh that’s fake about these docs. Hey what do you think about the line “secure comsec” –if it ain’t secure it ain’t comsec. Whole thing looks real joe amateur to me.

From: LOUIS GIRDLER

John,

I just had the same discussion with Larry Page. I do know that we left some "non-combat" advisors behind. "Operation Homecoming" took place in March of '73 and all of our remaining combat and special ops units -- including SF and MACV-SOG -- returned home before or shortly thereafter. The NVA completed their takeover of the south in 1975.

I don't know about the eventual disposition of certain units [including the ASA] in Thailand and other SEA countries after Operation Homecoming. I know that some of the ASA units moved from Vietnam to (e.g.) Thailand in late 72. They monitored the movement of PAVN forces as they consolidated their "victory."

Lou

[email protected]

Hi Robt,

Being an Air Force stiff, I don't know much about Army admin.

However, I was in commo for most of my 20 years. As I recall, the date time groups (dtg) on messages always ended in "Z" for zulu. I notice on all these messages, the dtg ends in "s".

I don't know if that means anything; just thought I would mention it.

Take care.

One more thing. I don't know if those messages are representative of messages that were actually sent.

My experience was on actually transmitted messages the text format was:

BT

S E C R E T (codeword)

..message text....

BT

Gary

[email protected]

I critiqued these documents a long time ago for an Army Investigator in Washington State. starting with the fact that MACV had been disbanded and one of his awards had been signed by Nixon after he quit. Tell your guy to read the file.

Steve Sherman sends

[email protected]

Robert,

RE: page 1 – “Special Operations Detachment MACV” sounds bogus. The complete absence of the acronym TDY also seems bogus. Orders were cryptic and this order has far too much unabbreviated verbiage to sound authentic.

RE: page 2 – “FOR THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF” sounds bogus. FTC – FOR THE COMMANDER would be more appropriate.

RE: page 3 – absolute bullshit! To my knowledge, the acronym SP/4 was never used. The wording is far too verbose – sounds fake. The idea that awards were written with classified details in the citation is also bullshit. They were sanitized so they would not have to be handled as classified information.

RE: page 4 – More verbose language. Way too much so for a DA Form 1 - Morning Report Casualty Report. The inclusion of classified information also seems bogus.

RE: page 5 –“head trauma wound” – “M-60 crew served weapon” – “except for a pressure bandage” – Way too verbose and non-professional.

I have reviewed all the orders pertaining to me from 1970 to 1974 and don’t have any that are good comparisons to these amateurish fakes. However, as noted above, the documents which you sent me are way too verbose for orders and awards. As noted above, the claim that we were issuing classified award citations is, I believe, absolutely false. Maybe you have documents from Operation Tailwind that might make good comparisons.

I was a Captain, in the US Army, at Ft Lewis Washington in 1974. I was an Executive Officer and Company Commander 1972-1974 and read many such orders. These orders do not ring true. I was previously assigned to SOA, CCN, 5^th SFGA from Nov 68 – Jun 70.

Regards,

Randy

[email protected]

Mr Noe

I read the 7 pages as sent and have a few comments, First about me,,
I am Larry Burbridge, a past crew chief with many, many hours with
Sog, Kontum. I am also a life member of SOA at the time they offered
us " taxi cabs" a chance for joining your group,, This in its self is
quite the honor and I feel honored being here even though I am not SF
qualified nor airborne, And, as Charles Behler and Terry Sorsby would
often comment to me,, why not go with us to Nha Trang and at least
get airborne qualified? To them, the answer was always the same,,,
why should I? I get $15.00 more per month to stay sitting in this
perfectly flying Huey not to jump.

Anyway, I also am the recipient of several awards myself,., All of
them on CCC/FOBII/TFAEII or whatever else name you want to call it,
missions,... Every single one states awarded deep in enemy territory.
When I asked about this, at the time,, an officer in our company,,
57th Gladiators told me it is because we were in the bra area or
falls, west of Leghorn and other areas,, There was never a village or
given area typed in,, Coordinates in the exact place, were not typed
in,, A simple, this basic air medal with V device, short paragraph
starting deep in enemy territory and then why the V. Simply put, over
the border was never listed and therefore no village, coordinates or
other possible listing was made that someone could zero in on,...
Deep in enemy territory it was,,

The reading of this award seems to me, By the exact use of wording,
something just doesn't add up,, On rare occasions it was possible for
a company clerk to make a typographical era, and if so, it would
always be the persons name or serial number, maybe 57th and drop off
the AHC, ( assault helicopter company), but never a mistake past the
beginning introduction.. When I took 3 rounds to the leg Dec 17th of
71,, and well over a year past this date,, I received a Distinguished
flying cross, awarded at Ft Ord, Calif,.,,, It too, states awarded
deep in enemy territory, then this and that happened,, It does not
read the western most section of Plei Trap valley and it does not
leave out several ( and- this, or ) and other words that would be
normally placed in the write up,,, And for another thing,, although I
was medivaced out of there on Feb 14th of 72, I did complete some
research on my chopper company and found out they were " NEXT TO
LAST" to leave country as a combat company,, That date was March 23rd
of 73... The next day, the last chopper company, and combat troops
left from IV corps area,,, Now they did keep several support chopper
companies till the evac March of 75.. Chinooks and some Hueys, but
support,, This, is the only thing I am not sure of.. There could have
been many Huey flights that happened and were off the record, few
people would be aware of this and this possibility can be quite
high.,. If so, I personally doubt the date, village as listed and a
huey going to the Thai border could do this,, We left Kontum for Dak
To staging area and always had to refuel first before anything,,
Inserting or extracting, with full fuel and we couldn't fly straight
from Dak To to the Thai border,, Just can't happen.
Anyway, thanks for listening, this is my two cents,,
SP/5 Larry Burbridge SOA 1999

[email protected]

[email protected]

Robert,

Bronze star award is not in any kind of correct format..here is one from
1966, but the format did not change throughout the VN war...

Ron

[email protected]

Robert...big time wannabe...I cannot believe any one bought this BS..

1. No the type is different for orders I have from 1971
2. No, any awards that were issued were done on separate orders, that may or may not be to an individual ( BS w/V for example) or group of individuals. ie: (CIB) also any special orders..also missing the assistant adj(document2)signature block..never says for the commander in chief..just [for the commander] does not state "inquires about these orders"..see attached document
3. No, MACV was disbanded 29 March, 1973
4. No such thing as classified awards..ever, especially campaign ribbons...awards and decorations are reflected on the DD214, as we all know..Since MACV wasn't around, they couldn't issue squat...Every General or Special order I have from that time frame have two signature blocks... and so it goes...I will continue to review...Regards

Ron Piper

[email protected]

1. Wrong font, pull copies of your old orders, you will see Army used a very distinctive font on all orders

2. With the signing of the Paris Peace Accords all American and third country forces were to be withdrawn within 60 days of the cease-fire. MACV was therefore disbanded on March 29, 1973. (Official Documents)

3. In two documents Roy is identified as PFC and SP4,

4. Look at bottom of page 2, receiving unit identified as MARPAC, (Marines, Pacific, USARV and MACV were Army units.

5. Several of the documents seem to be cut and paste, do a pixel examination of the documents believe you will find discrepancies between pixels count and color.

Just a few observations

Jack Tobin

COL (R) SF

[email protected]

Robert;

Why all the way from Europe for a private ? jSpecial medical training ? Sec Clearance during and when granted and by whom.

We had Locals that are very familiar with that area of the ground and some of us. Possibly some of the super spooks were involved ?

Did he have a language edge, know the language ?

Too many holes and unaswered things.

You might gain ground by using a warrant or commissioned officer who was AG to see if all is correct in the document. Also the days of his awards matter. Many things are never cut on holidays and the such. I am not fluent in the type of things.

Medical training, we had the best there was to be had in the army and had many people who would have been available or willing to go on this job.

Perhaps I have asked too many questions and given none.

Were there any other people available who had knowledge of this. Who put him in for the BS and at what office.

Too much bull shit.

Take care.

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